Speaker 1: Welcome and thank you for visiting the Informatorium 56 Podcast Studio.

This location is dedicated to general education and information and features this podcast.

I am Greg Bell and my partner Julia Korony is here with me today, and she is going to start us off with our topic.

So Julia, what are we going to learn about today?

Speaker 2: Well, we are going to learn about a man-made stone, but first we will go back to its unlikely beginning and learn about the development of auto paint and how the car manufacturing plant became the unwitting factory for an unintended new stone.

We will see how the pursuit of perfection of the auto paint production process results in the creation of our Fordite and how this same exact pursuit brings about the end of its production.

There are a bunch of fun little side topics along the way and then we will end with more about the stone itself.

Before we get started, I gave Greg two cabochons.

Now cabochons are a way of cutting gemstones that results in a rounded face and a flattish back.

Greg, can you please describe what you are holding and what your first reaction was when I gave you these?

Speaker 1: Yeah, like you said, they’re rounded on the front and they’re flatter on the back, but not like ovals or anything.

Like the one is actually triangular and kind of actually looks like a mini one-inch Star Trek logo, if you know what that looks like.

While the other is like more like an inch and a half and it’s like a teardrop.

I think what’s interesting is the design is like the colors on each.

Like the small one has mostly squiggly ovals throughout, and they’re kind of small, but then there’s some like stripes mixed in.

And then the other one’s the opposite because it’s bigger, you can see like these thin lines, but then it only has like a couple squiggly circles in it.

But they’re really cool.

Honestly, you know, they kind of look like what you would think like maybe a seashell on some kind of alien beach or something.

Speaker 2: So what you are holding there are two pieces of Fordite, also known as Detroit Agate.

Speaker 1: I mean, I think Fordite sounds a little cooler.

Can we go with the Fordite?

Speaker 2: We can go with the Fordite.

We will explore more about that towards the end about the name of it.

But yes, we will definitely refer to it as Fordite.

It is actually an enamel, specifically an enamel used in painting cars.

And all those different color layers you so eloquently described come from all the cars that were painted on the assembly line of a car manufacturing plant.

And today we will look at this man-made gem and its history.

So let’s dig into the files and learn about Fordite.

So the word Fordite is neither in the Oxford or Merriam-Webster dictionaries, but the meaning of the word is kind of self-evident.

A lot of minerals and rocks tend to end with the suffix “-ite.” For example, malachite, pyrite, hematite, and this comes from Greek and they used to do this to name minerals and rocks in order to denote what it looked like to them.

So for example, hematite is derived from the Greek word for blood, to which they added “-ite” to allude to the color of the mineral, which can be red because it is rich in iron.

Speaker 1: Hmm.

This is interesting.

So I have a question.

If I were to, hypothetically speaking, make a miniaturized army clone from myself, would we call them Greggites?

Speaker 2: I mean, we could.

Are they going to be mini Greggites?

Speaker 1: I mean, they look like me, so they’re Greggites, right? Is that what we’re doing?

Speaker 2: Right, right.

I like that they’re miniature.

I mean, a full army of Greggites would be scary, a full-sized army.

Speaker 1: I feel like that.

I mean, where would I keep them? You know?

Speaker 2: You would have to feed them.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that’s on a small scale.

Speaker 2: But you know, you make a good point because that’s also how we denote where people come from, right? In to an extent because there’s other ways to do it.

But you know, you can say like an Israelite or a Brooklyner.

You know, then we also do like Carolinian or whatever, but you know, the “-ite” also kind of denotes where you’re from.

Anyway, we are still using this naming methodology and we applied it to this new raw material that came from the automobile manufacturing plant.

Hence, we got Fordite.

It’s a way to make something more precious or like you said, cooler.

We can’t talk about Fordite without going back into the past and discussing Henry Ford and the creation of the, drumroll, assembly line.

Speaker 1: Of course.

It feels like sometimes like you can’t go back and talk about anything without discussing Henry Ford and the assembly line.

But then you have to like pause and be like, we don’t endorse his personal views, which of course we do not.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and this will be very light on Henry Ford and Henry Ford references.

This is more about just the assembly line and it’s just part of the assembly line history.

So let’s go back and get some history on car manufacturing, but more importantly, car painting.

The Model T Ford Club of America is the self-described largest Model T club in America.

They have a complex set of bylaws for members and everything.

They also have a website that is a vast source of information with all kinds of original records and is one of our sources for this early step in our Fordite origin story.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually checked this out and I mean, this is really in-depth and like a really kind of cool website they have there.

They actually have stuff like ads and these like fact sheets from when the cars were produced.

And I read one, it was for the Model A.

And it describes how at the time they just called it the Ford, which obviously makes sense.

That was the Ford, right?

Speaker 2: The first one.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

So there was a picture of the car and it has all the descriptions, everything, and it starts out like this and it says, “Ten or twelve years ago, self-propelled vehicles were curiosities, regarded by the majority of people as a passing fad of the fashionable world, and not to be taken in the least degree seriously or considered a practical permanent improvement in transportation.” It actually goes on to explain…

Speaker 2: It’s like I just tuned in like one of those old-timey radios.

Speaker 1: Yeah, old-timey radio voice, Greg.

It says it has, this is great, “a double cylinder engine which is perfect in construction and efficiency.”

Speaker 2: Now do it with your old-timey newsman voice.

Speaker 1: Okay, so it goes on about how simple it is, okay? And it says, “Simplicity is one of the strongest talking points we can put up for the Ford.

It is hard to break and easy to fix.

It is made of few parts and every part means something.

No superfluities, no fads.

It’s easy to run, to start, to steer, and to stop.

All things perfect are simple.

So is the Ford.” So then it ends up telling you how the price is 750 bucks, but this is great, you can get add-ons to this and like customize it.

Speaker 2: Just like today.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it’s like when you go to Toyota and they try to charge you like $3,000 for your floor mats and stuff like that.

But this is for 30 bucks, you actually get a rubber top.

You get a top.

It’s like you get a roof.

It’s a rubber top made of first quality of goods and it’s complete with lined side curtains, side lights, and an apron.

Speaker 2: Oh my god, for $30.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought that was actually…

Speaker 2: To be fair, that’s probably like $5,000 in today’s money.

Speaker 1: I mean, the 750 bucks, I think we’re talking probably like 30, 40 times that to get a car now.

So, but yeah, so it seemed like these guys had a bunch of history on the site and it was a pretty good website to use.

Speaker 2: Right.

But we’re actually going to start quite a bit later than that.

We’re going to start in 1908 when Ford introduces the Model T.

So we went from Model A, the first Ford, all the way to Model T.

Before we get to the heart of our story, let’s start and get the base of where car paint starts out.

Ford was on a mission to make a lot of cars and as fast as possible.

Not the car being fast, making them as fast as possible.

Speaker 1: The production, right.

Speaker 2: Right.

So he’s quoted as saying, “When I’m through, about everyone will have one.” This determination led to his development of the assembly line.

And by the end of 1913, he installs the moving assembly line, which cuts down manufacturing time even further from 12 hours to 1 hour and 33 minutes.

Speaker 1: Jeez, it’s like you’re making a Happy Meal.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it’s just, you know, it’s the moving assembly line.

So people are just putting stuff together and it goes on to the next person.

Speaker 1: I’m assuming, you know, we’re not talking about putting in a lot of blind spot monitors and electronics and stuff, so this is going to be a little bit faster.

Yeah, but still, pretty impressive.

Speaker 2: Right.

What’s different about our story than the usual Ford assembly line history, though, is we are going to focus on one of the biggest issues he faces, which is paint.

So in the early 1900s, they are applying the same finish on these cars as they were on carriages because, well, this is what they know how to do, making carriages.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that’s what they were doing at the time.

So I guess they just started making cars and were like, how do you paint them? And like, just do the same thing.

Speaker 2: Right, whatever.

We don’t have anything else except this varnish, so let’s put it on the car.

Speaker 1: Makes sense.

Speaker 2: So this varnish is applied by hand in multiple layers and waiting for each layer to dry.

There is some sanding done in between layers, with the final layer being polished to a shine.

Now this process could take up to 40 days.

Speaker 1: Hmm.

So you get the car in 10 minutes and the paint takes a month.

Speaker 2: Right.

It really bottlenecks the assembly line.

Also, these finishes are not very durable and the car will most likely require to be painted again sooner than later.

And so they adapt a form of varnish/paint called Japan Black, taken from the Japanese.

The painted parts are baked at 400 degrees to speed up the drying process and also speeds up the assembly line.

Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.

I thought it was interesting that they were already starting baking cars back then.

I mean, that’s how they do it today, of course.

The 400 degrees is kind of a lot.

Yeah, today you’re doing like 140, 150.

I think you have to get the surface of the metal to 150.

I was never a painter, but it’s got to be like that for 40 minutes to an hour.

I guess it kind of depends on how you’re doing it.

Like I said, I’m not an expert on that, but it’s something like that.

Also a little different, today you can get as many colors as you can imagine.

I mean, it’s kind of crazy.

And Ford, of course, had just a few less.

He famously said, “The customer can get the Model T painted in any color he wants, so long as it’s black.” You hear that quote all over the place.

Yeah, it’s classic Ford quotes.

But I mean, they did actually make a couple other colors, but essentially I guess they were just kind of so dark that unless it was super bright outside, they looked black anyway.

But you know, a lot of people thought it was because it was the fastest drying because obviously efficiency is what he’s going for all the time.

But in reality, it was actually the most durable and cheapest because all the paints they used would actually use what was called the Japan Black method, like you said, which is kind of interesting.

I thought maybe we’d take a little detour on that and just talk about it for a second.

I kind of dug into it a little bit.

Speaker 2: Sounds good to me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it was kind of a, well, for one, I’d never heard of it.

So, but it’s really interesting.

It is kind of a neat way.

I guess this is kind of like the most durable, effective way to paint things at the time.

And Japan Black is basically just in sum, it’s a baking varnish and it uses an asphaltic base in conjunction with drying oils, thinners, or excuse me, with oils and dryers, thinners, and sometimes other varnish ingredients.

It’s usually applied to metal, like fenders, which is kind of where, you know, we get the crossover here when they started using it.

Now, this gentleman named William Brown actually wrote a book on Japanning in 1913.

So I dug through that a little bit.

And he describes the original Japanese version, which is a little bit different than the English version.

He says in Japan, where the natives, they use a natural varnish or lacquer which flows from a certain kind of tree and which on its issuing from the plant is of creamy tint, but becomes black when exposed to air.

Obviously his language is English, a little bit different than ours.

He uses some flowery prose there.

Speaker 2: It is 1913.

Everything was more flowery.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so and he’s also writing a book.

I don’t know, maybe he’s doing it for effect.

But this was apparently very heat-resistant and kept its shine.

So conversely, the English version he says is safer and cheaper but less durable.

I didn’t quite get the safer part.

Speaker 2: I was going to say, what? I mean, who knows what was coming out of that tree.

Speaker 1: It may be the ingredients, you know what I mean? But he didn’t actually explain that part, so I wasn’t actually sure where he was going for it.

But he does explain like the process for making the black.

Basically the whole process, he says first the metal does not have to be primed, which is obviously awesome.

That’s what we’re looking for, whatever’s quicker, cheaper, you know, better way to go about it.

And if it still works in the end, then that’s perfect.

They mixed shellac, which is actually a resin from insects that you can heat up and it flows, and then when it dries, it’s hard.

And they mix that with methylated spirits.

So they’re actually using like a natural product here.

You keep these warm and the shellac dissolves after a few days.

So then you strain it and you add your ground-up pigment, which he has a ton of different ways to add colors to this.

So theoretically, you can add a lot of colors to it and make it kind of whatever color you want.

He had white, he had all kinds of stuff in this book.

And then you apply your varnish and pigment combo to your surface with a brush and you bake it in between coats.

The brush part is like really interesting.

You’re talking about just using like basically a paintbrush to paint this stuff, which they’re actually doing with the cars, which seems fascinating.

But just I never occurred to me, I guess the image of that, somebody painting the side of a car with a paintbrush and like this is like the factory doing it.

Speaker 2: That’s why it took 40 days.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

But now the colors have special processes and he actually notes that it’s difficult to maintain the color of some without it darkening.

So again, that’s another step towards everything being black.

But however, he says when it comes to the black process, it seems to be the simplest.

He notes that the metal is first covered with a drying agent and that the surface doesn’t have to be polished because it’ll be bright enough, which again seems to kind of be in keeping with what we’re trying to accomplish here at an early factory that’s trying to just do everything as quickly and cheaply as possible.

Now, there’s also an article linked on your club site that dives into a bunch of old sources to reconstruct how Ford painted the Model T specifically.

Okay, so this was written by Trent Boggess, Boggess, B-O-G-G-E-S.

Speaker 2: Boggess?

Speaker 1: Yeah, not sure on that one.

And he’s a professor or was at least at Plymouth State University.

So he actually researched at the Ford Museum, which is kind of crazy.

They have like incredibly detailed documents.

Speaker 2: They have everything.

I think they lost a couple in a fire like a few years in here and there, but they have everything.

Speaker 1: Right, from the cost, from the materials, everything.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it’s amazing.

It’s like they kept track of everything they were doing back then.

And I’m sure they still do.

It just seems a little bit out of a little strange that back then they had such detail to everything.

But and they kept it all.

And he goes through all this stuff and explains it.

They have microfilms, they have records on what it cost to build and most importantly for what we’re doing right now, it identified paint materials and it says down to the sandpaper and solvents.

So I mean, he they really had this thing laid out and he dove into all this and tried to figure out how they were painting the cars.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because also the Model T people, on the website, I think a lot of people just want to restore these cars.

So you know, you have people that want to really know how they used to do it to make their cars look the same.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I did dig through a couple of those too where people were talking about how like what’s the closest thing you can do now to make this.

And yeah, they’re trying to use all the same materials and stuff.

I don’t know if some of this stuff you can actually get your hands on.

We’ll see.

But it was stuff that they’re all the stuff they’re trying to do to make the exact same thing.

And one of the guys had actually pointed to this article and that’s how I had found it.

But he explains originally Fords came in several colors.

But from 1909 until 1925, black was the standard color.

Now, color varnish paints were based on drying oils like linseed and China wood oils that are derived from vegetable sources.

When exposed to the air, these oils would capture and combine the oxygen, forming a dry hard resinous material.

So obviously this is kind of similar to what we were talking about with the Japanning.

And adding metals like lead or iron acted as a drying agent because it allowed oxygen to penetrate deeper into the paint.

And obviously the oxygen is what’s causing the paint to dry when we’re talking about this kind of material.

Speaker 2: That’s interesting.

Speaker 1: Yeah, as opposed to like a synthetic where you’re using chemical drying agents.

This one’s actually getting the oxygen in there and using it to dry the material.

He explains that there were air-drying formulas and heat-drying formulas.

So the heat-drying formulas are the Japan Black.

And he explains Japan Black was applied to the Ford process both because of it incorporated the baking like the Japanning was known for before 1900, and then also because they used the Japan dryers.

So these were chemicals added to the vegetable drying oil and this sped up the process.

So yeah, again, it’s just all about the speed, I think, is what we’re looking for.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that is really all that he wanted was just…

Speaker 1: It’s like how fast can we make this happen.

Yeah, so now Ford also employed an added asphalt material to improve resistance to water, which he explains is low in cost, acts as a hardening agent for the oils, and results in a high-gloss dark-colored surface.

It also tends to increase the plasticity of the paint, making it less brittle, more flexible, and able to withstand the vibration of fenders, hoods, and shields without cracking or peeling.

What is this magic product you may ask?

Speaker 2: I don’t know.

Speaker 1: Okay, well I’m going to do this.

You ready?

Speaker 2: I’m ready, I’m ready.

Drumroll.

Speaker 1: And I’m going to we’re going to do a detour inside of a detour.

This is the first time in the history of this very short podcast.

Speaker 2: A detour within a detour.

Speaker 1: A detour within a detour.

We’re so far off the road now.

Speaker 2: I don’t even know what we’re talking about.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but the product is actually Gilsonite.

So according to Utah.gov, which is where obviously I go for all of my Gilsonite information…

Speaker 2: There’s a good reason why.

Speaker 1: There’s a lot of Gilsonite in Utah.

So apparently that’s why they have it on the website.

But this is actually a naturally occurring solid black lightweight organic material that originates from the solidification of petroleum.

So the dull black appearance of weathered Gilsonite resembles coal, whereas the surface of freshly broken Gilsonite is shiny and resembles obsidian.

And then you can see how we’re getting into the black again.

This is going to be our only option here and this is why it ends up this way.

They do explain there’s a lot of uses for Gilsonite, one of which is it’s soluble in organic solvents, which I pointed out earlier, we’re using shellac, it’s organic, this makes sense.

It also does other things which are kind of interesting.

They use it for like newspaper to make the print stick to the paper, to seal asphalt pavement, roofing felt, all that kind of stuff.

It has hundreds of industrial uses.

I feel like I could do a whole show on this Gilsonite.

It seems amazing.

But it seems to all revolve around adding it to stuff to make things more durable, which is exactly what they’re looking for when they’re making this paint.

And again, it’s going to be black.

Speaker 2: And you can make it shiny.

Speaker 1: Right, and it helps to make it shiny and it’s also but again, just contributing to everything being black.

And I think we’re getting close to our answer as to why that was actually happening.

Speaker 2: Why he was making all of them black.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

So but like you said, it does limit the color options once you put it in the material.

And that’s where we are back to the beginning of the story with the paint.

And he also does point out that black dried faster and that the carbon pigment that was used to make the black was the cheapest of all the colors.

So I think we pretty much, you know, solved why everything’s black at that point.

He does actually talk about the substrate and what you’re painting and he does point out that this is used for metal, which I already pointed out.

But I just wanted to add that it was interesting because he says when they’re painting the cars, and by “he” I mean Boggess that wrote the article on the Ford painting process, specifically with the Ford parts.

So the fenders and hoods and running boards were getting painted with this process.

Interestingly, the wheels and the body was not because they were wood.

So the wheels are wood and the body is actually reinforced with wood until 1925.

So and these wood parts they can’t handle the heat that it takes to bake it up to 400 degrees.

So this is actually a few parts of the car that they’re painting.

Oh, interesting.

But again, and these Japanning processes were applied with a brush up until the 1920s.

So it’s pretty similar to the thing described in William Brown’s book and it seems like, you know, they just made a few modifications, maybe added the Gilsonite.

But other than that, they’re brushing this paint on just like they were painting the house.

Speaker 2: Right, brushing and flowing.

Like I read some articles where they said they were flowing it onto the surface.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and there’s a couple parts they dipped and stuff like that.

But yeah, I think with these, yeah, a couple fenders and hoods, but yeah, it’s like it’s just again, it’s like you’re painting a house.

It’s like you go through with your brush and just start painting your car and that’s going to be the finished product.

So, but we will see that this is what speeds up the process.

This is what he’s worried about, speed, efficiency, and cost.

And we’ll see that it is actually this desire to keep speeding things up that actually results in our Fordite material being created.

Speaker 2: Right.

And you know what? Gilsonite, there’s another “-ite” word.

Speaker 1: That’s true.

They are everywhere.

It seems like not very original.

It’s kind of like they ran out of ideas how to make words somewhere around 1700 and just started adding “-ite.”

Speaker 2: The Greeks were like, “Oh, just put ‘-ite’ on it.”

Speaker 1: It was the Greeks too, though.

Yeah, so.

Speaker 2: All right.

So in the 1920s are when some huge developments occur and this changes the car painting industry and takes us from the Japan method and painting cars with a brush to more modern methods that lead to the creation of our good old Fordite.

So up until now, we have just been discussing the industry.

None of these steps get us to our Fordite.

But it does leave us with the assembly line, which will be the home base of operations for making our new product.

So we still need two more things: the material and the applicator.

Speaker 1: All right.

So let’s start out with the material, which is obviously our paint.

We’re going to need something a little more color and flair, I think, if we’re going to get to these stones that I’m looking at on the table here.

From what it sounds like, we started out with Ford when we were just doing black everything.

So let’s jump into the ’20s and see where things start to progress.

First, in the early ’20s, nitrocellulose lacquers are created.

DuPont, the chemical company, were involved with GM Motor Company and together they invented Duco paint.

Now, by involved, I actually mean from 1917 to 1919, DuPont invested $50 million in GM and became their biggest stockholder.

Okay, so I didn’t actually realize that.

So they were directly involved in the auto production process or in the manufacturing companies at least.

This collaboration here results in basically the beginning of automotive paint.

So the first time paint was specifically made for a car is this Duco paint, which was invented by DuPont.

Speaker 2: So before this, they were just trying to come up with a way to use paint they had.

Now with DuPont, he’s just making a paint specifically to meet the needs of the  the car production.

Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly.

Because he’s involved in this and he’s got money, money into it, so it’s in his best interest.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I’m sure they’re looking, they’re looking at the industry ahead and it’s like, well, why don’t we make some specific road we need? And like you said, also they own a major portion of the car company.

I mean, it’s a win-win for them.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And interestingly, if the word cellulose sounds familiar, I’m not a chemist, but I think what piqued my interest is it sounds very similar to the motion picture film.

And it turns out that’s actually where it comes from.

DuPont chemists actually developed this paint from the same chemicals that they were making motion picture film and explosives from at the time.

And this new paint is a huge improvement.

So it dries through solvent evaporation, so that’s going to be a big change.

It actually dries in about two hours.

Speaker 2: I was going to say, that’s going to be fast.

Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a completely different thing they got.

This is like, yeah, we’re making the evolution of paint.

I guess this is the first time people like dove in and were like, how can we make a better paint? So it’s much tougher than oil resin paints and it could be easily pigmented, which is also huge because now you can get new colors.

Also, it could be sprayed on, which allows for a much cleaner and easier application.

GM, of course, starts using this right away due to the DuPont involvement.

But DuPont apparently made this new paint available to other manufacturers in 1925.

Now, Ford, not so surprisingly, was not apparently super concerned about the color of the car.

Speaker 2: Well, he had his own brand black he was…

Speaker 1: Yeah, I don’t think he was super worried about, you know, cup holders and paint colors and stuff like that.

This was a different time.

But he also does, it turns out, adopt spray guns in 1926 and we’ll see he starts offering other colors and obviously that means he’s evolving with the paint too.

We’ll find out here in a few minutes.

But a New York Times article points out that Ford says paint “slag” has been around since the ’20s.

And that makes sense.

I mean, this is when we start getting the layers building up from, you know, the spraying and also the color and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: But 1930s, we’re going to jump ahead to there.

When we get to the ’30s, paint manufacturers start to wonder if there’s a way to make a new paint that has the appearance of the natural resin that they liked, but also is easier to work with, like a synthetic lacquer like the Duco.

I thought that was kind of interesting because this, when they put this in this, this is actually a history of automotive paint that I was, that we were looking at for a source.

But it points out that actually they preferred the appearance of that Japan Black.

Speaker 2: Right, the shiny…

Speaker 1: Yeah, they’re actually saying this is actually nicer, it’s just that it was harder to work with.

So in the ’30s, what they come up with is a polymer paint.

It’s made from natural and synthetic materials.

Speaker 2: Interesting.

But they’re also kind of dangerous, right? Like, you know, like I think you mentioned, you know, the film industry and like all that stuff was kind of flammable.

So I’m sure they’re trying to get away from some of that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I don’t know if people were super worried about worker health and stuff back then.

Speaker 2: No, but you don’t want your plant to explode because Steve over here is smoking next to his natural…

Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that’s, yeah, I guess that’s true, but I feel like they would just, you know, kind of be harsh and draconian with their reinforcement of those rules.

But, so when they come up with this synthetic polymer, it actually gives a better shine and it’s relatively easier to work with.

So this doesn’t really change the equation for what we’re making, which is going to be our secret little Fordite plant in the middle of this Ford factory.

But it does kind of put the two things together and it leads us into the next step, which is going to be really huge if you’re trying to make some awesome-looking Fordite.

So in the 1950s, that’s when things change.

Okay, so in the 1950s, cars are now a showpiece.

I mean, just think about it.

You know, this is when you start getting the classic automobiles that everybody thinks of as like the beginning of the power of Detroit, the beginning of…

Speaker 2: Well, it’s after the war and you’re, you know, you’re going for that American dream.

You know, your house with the white picket fence and the deck in the back and then, you know, you have your ’50s cars, you know, all those pretty cars.

Speaker 1: Right, and people have a couple bucks to spend on a nicer car and it’s just, and everybody gets into it.

It’s like, what it always reminds me of is the thing of the time period would be George Lucas’s movie, the American Graffiti.

I don’t know if you’ve ever saw that, but it’s all these classic cars that drive around, Opie’s in it, Ron Howard’s in it.

But which is what I meant by Opie.

And there’s, for those of you who are not 110.

But yeah, and it just, you know, this is the time period we’re talking about and you can just think about that, you can feel it and it’s like now it really matters what your car looks like and that is reflected in the paint.

Okay, so new technology is created, the acrylic resin.

This is a whole new peak in car paint.

This is the best-looking paint ever used on a car.

And importantly, this new paint allows for the inclusion of metallic pigments.

So we’re going to get all kinds of different colors.

Also, it took multiple coats, multiple coats to get the desired thickness, which if you think about it, when you’re looking at your Fordite, it’s got all these layers in it.

So the more layers we can get in the process, the more we can make.

So it adds all kinds of colors and that productivity and then now we have our accidental Fordite manufacturing plant material that we need to get going with our new stone.

Speaker 2: Right.

So, okay, so we have the assembly line and we have the paint and now we need the applicator, like you said.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Or if we were painting, we would call it our brush, but…

Speaker 2: Step three.

Speaker 1: Getting rid of the brush in order to do something else, so that doesn’t make any sense, but…

So let’s get the applicator up to speed.

Where do we get this? Well, we mentioned earlier that Ford adopts the spray gun in the late ’20s, right? It turns out spraying paint actually dates back to 1887, which I thought was kind of amazing.

Yeah, I didn’t realize that.

But this guy, Joseph Binks, actually invented a whitewash spraying machine to paint walls.

Okay, so this was basically a spray bottle, like a garden sprayer, and you just pumped it and it built up pressure and then you could just spray with this wand and paint everywhere.

I actually found a picture of it online and it’s actually a bill of sale on eBay from this guy’s trying to hawk the bill because it has pictures on it from like somebody selling one of these a long time ago.

But it really is just like a canister and then it’s got wheels on it so you can wheel it around and it’s got this hose coming out of it and this wand that kind of looks like the shape of a dustpan and then you just pump that up, you build up the pressure and then you could just paint these huge walls.

Yeah, this guy actually like came in to save the Chicago Exposition because they couldn’t get everything painted in time.

So there’s like a whole story about how this guy became popular and everything.

Speaker 2: In 1893 he’s like, I know how to paint all those walls.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

That’s pretty much what happened.

But as for our story, moving it over to the other side, how do we get to the car spraying or spraying car paint? Turns out we’re going to have the involvement of a dentist.

There was a dentist who actually came up with a little spray mechanism.

His name was Allen DeVilbiss, which ends up being a very important company in spray guns.

They continue doing that for a very long time.

But it started in 1888 and he was actually a dentist who wanted to spray medicine.

So he’s trying to, I’m, you know, you have people’s mouths open, he’s trying to spray this stuff and he’s coming up, trying to come up with a way to do it that’s more effective.

And what he does is he takes this, he takes this rubber bulb, okay, and attaches it to a little glass jar and then has this little mechanism inside and then the spray wand comes out the other side.

And it’s basically if you think of like a perfume jar that has those little pumps on them that you just squeeze them and then…

That’s what it is.

So it just pushes pressure across the glass jar that has your fluid in it, builds a tiny little bit of vacuum and then sprays the particles out the other side.

Speaker 2: So he also came up with the perfume spray bottle.

Speaker 1: I assume they probably used it for that.

I don’t know.

I mean, it would be super weird if like somebody else had done that.

Speaker 2: That was done in like the 1700s.

Speaker 1: They just didn’t know, yeah.

But anyway, what happens is then his son, Thomas, actually goes on and improves this in 1907.

Okay, so he adds some juice, so to speak, to the process and he uses compressed air.

So he just blows compressed air across his pickup tube that goes flying out the other end and he actually is creating a controllable spray pattern and it’s atomizing the product as it comes out the other end.

Speaker 2: Right, it’s even now.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you, I couldn’t find the original, I looked for patents and I found a bunch of patents for the DeVilbiss company, but none of them went back before like 1950.

So either they didn’t patent it or I just can’t find it.

But I did find a very old-timey collection that this guy had online and he had this little box and it’s a spray gun on top and everything and it’s a really, really old one.

It looks kind of similar to the ones they have today.

It’s not super complicated.

It’s kind of the same thing.

It’s got an attachment on the front, the gun in the middle, and then a little jar on the bottom that holds your material.

So that’s very similar to what we’re using today.

But it really just looks like a tiny little gun.

Now, we have these spray mechanisms going on.

How do they get introduced to our car companies? Well, going back to the new paint, because it actually dried faster when they shifted from that natural to synthetic material in the ’30s, there wasn’t time to brush anymore.

So it turned out the only thing that was really fast enough was the spray gun and they just happened to invent it and here we are, we need it in the car manufacturers.

It was, you know, it was a good marriage.

Well, they’d invented it a little bit previous, but I’m sure there was a couple improvements.

So now you have your newly invented spray gun, you have your paint that needs to be sprayed on, and that gives us the next step in our story, which is overspray.

So the paint that doesn’t hit the car when you’re in a booth painting a car, you know, you tape up the car, the parts that you don’t want to paint or whatever like that type of thing.

This goes on even today, I mean, and you just spray the car with your paint.

There’s always a little bit that comes out over the side that doesn’t hit the car where you’re aiming, and that’s called overspray.

And basically it just lands all over everything.

And in the assembly line back then, this landed on the rails that they were pushing the cars on, it landed on the paint bays, it got all over the place.

Speaker 2: Right.

And it built up and dripped as well, or just…

Speaker 1: Nah, yeah, a lot of people talk about the dripping and like honestly, I just…

Speaker 2: Well, I don’t know because you see some of the shapes of the Fordites and to me it makes me think of a drip.

But I don’t know, I’m not a…

Speaker 1: Right, but it’s just, it’s nine million layers, you know what I mean? Like it’s like, so it would have to keep dripping at the same spot, which I guess is theoretically possible.

There’s something in the process that is resulting in like this dripping down.

But basically…

Speaker 2: Well, I think like as it’s building up on the rails and stuff, maybe underneath it starts to drip, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah, that could be, but it’s like it certainly wouldn’t be the car dripping.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: I mean, like if the car was dripping, it would come out the other side looking like a disaster.

You know what I mean? I’m sure they weren’t quite as smooth and perfect as they are today, but I also just can’t imagine that anybody’s allowing this to go on.

Speaker 2: Right, I don’t, yeah, I don’t think it necessarily drips off the car.

I think it’s dripping more like of the surrounding area, like it’s building up on like all the stuff and it’s just dripping.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and that’s possible.

And like a lot of the sources do talk about it, but I also kind of wonder if anybody actually knows exactly how it happened unless you had somebody there.

Clearly I don’t either.

But I’m just saying it’s like I do think, you know, that it’s more likely that it was just building up in the overspray.

But like you said, yeah, maybe there’s a spot where it’s just keeps hitting there and that’s why it’s funneling to that one spot.

Speaker 2: Right, right.

Or as the rails got built up as they’re going through, you know, it’s hitting something and it’s causing all this paint to drip in this one section.

Just again, I look at some of the raw Fordites that I’ve seen pictures of and like some of them just look like good old drips.

So to sum it all up, you have your shiny durable modern paints, you have your spray gun that atomizes the paint and makes nice smooth layers, and you move the car into the paint booth and close the door, paint your successive layers of paint, and then you bake the paint.

Well, all of these coats contributing to overspray and the booth and the rails are getting baked over and over and each car gets, you know, moved through and eventually you have so much build-up that they have to clean the booth.

History has it that it was in the 1940s at the Ford Motor Company in Michigan that a guy is tasked with cleaning the rail.

Now our hero chips away at the baked build-up and liked what he saw and he saves it and Fordite is born.

Speaker 1: That’s fantastic.

That’s fantastic.

You know, you know, incidentally, who would be really good at that?

Speaker 2: Who would be good at at birthing Fordite? Chipping away the Fordite?

Speaker 1: Oh, the Greg-ites.

Speaker 2: Oh, your army of Greg-ites.

Speaker 1: Yes, just imagine these, this little Fordite mining crew and they got their little hard hats and their picks and they’re like out there, they’re going down the mine just chipping, they would be so much more Fordite right now.

It would be ridiculous.

Speaker 2: Your Fordite prospect.

Speaker 1: Fordite mining Greg-ite Fordite prospectors.

Yeah, and also I do think one of the other things about these layers, you can see how it gets its name, the Detroit Agate, its other name, because it’s these numerous thin layers of material that are like maybe a millimeter thick.

However, unlike natural agate, which is crystallized silica, our Detroit Agate is formed from successive layers of paint.

But you can see that in when you’re looking at the Fordite, how these layers go through it like that.

And that’s why it looks the way it does and that’s why it’s gained some level of popularity.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Now, this never-ending search for the best paint products means our Fordite production process and Fordite mining as a career, so to speak, is very short-lived.

Speaker 1: Oh, man.

You mean, are you telling me the Greg-ites are already out of work?

Speaker 2: It seems like it.

It was very… we just got things rolling.

So what ends Fordite? First, the lacquers looked great when they were fresh, but a couple years later, the clear coat began to fade and required a lot of polishing to restore.

So the manufacturers are again looking for a better material and a better process.

Now also the EPA gets involved and puts in regulation that made the high solvent content lacquer no longer viable as a product and makes the car manufacturer clean up their processes.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the pollution and the dangerous materials and yeah.

Speaker 2: So car manufacturers have to evolve.

In the ’80s, they went to a base coat clear coat system, both of which were enamel, but the bottom coat is color and the top is clear.

Finally, in the ’90s, we end up with waterborne paint base clear, which is a similar process.

Speaker 1: So these changes, along with the automation and process improvements, are designed to cause less of an ecological footprint, less, less chemicals, less electricity.

And most importantly for our Fordite story, much less overspray.

Or as the New York Times puts it, the big auto companies stopped producing the raw material for Fordite when the painting process was automated starting in the 1970s.

The cars and trucks are now painted in an electrostatic process that essentially eliminates overspray.

Now, I did note most of the sources on this topic do indicate that it was this cleaner process that ended Fordite production with the electrostatic paint, because basically they put a charge in it to make sure the paint  sticks to the car.

I do want to add that it seems like there would be another reason that it would end, and maybe this has nothing to do with it, or maybe it was just going to be the reason it ended anyway.

But when you switch to a base coat, clear coat process, the bottom coat doesn’t really get hard anymore.

I mean, you can put a hardener in it to make it harder, but it’s not going to end up being the same thing.

Whereas before, everything was kind of like the same kind of paint and they were just putting it on top of each other.

But when they switched to those enamels and those waterborne paints, it’s just not the same thing because that bottom coat is actually just getting put down and then you put the clear coat on it and that’s what hardens it.

Like I said, I wasn’t sure about the enamel, but I did speak to a friend of mine, Mike, who is a long-time painter, we’ll call him Car Mike, I guess.

But he’s basically done everything you can do to repair a vehicle.

And he said that the enamel is the same thing.

It’s like they do have hardeners that you could put in it, but it’s not going to resist like a solvent or something harsh that hits it.

And also, why would they be doing this? Because they know they’re going to put clear coat on top of it.

So basically, it wasn’t going to keep happening if you think about it.

And to be honest, I think at this point, the car manufacturers, the process is just cleaner in general.

They’re not going to just have big balls of stuff building up on the side of their, you know, like it’s 1920.

You know what I mean? It’s just a different world at this point.

Speaker 2: Right, exactly.

Exactly.

Well, either way, this makes our Fordite material finite, and it happens almost overnight.

And this perhaps had some value to it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think as opposed to being thrown away, I would say it definitely had some value, right?

Speaker 2: Right.

You can’t really make real Fordite anymore, you know?

Speaker 1: Yeah, like you said, the process isn’t really there and the process isn’t there to do it anymore.

That’s just not how paint works today.

So no matter what the cause is, there’s a few of them.

You know what I mean? It’s just not going to keep happening like that unless you were doing it on purpose.

Speaker 2: So let’s talk a little bit about the actual Fordite.

Obviously, it’s named Fordite because of its origin story.

However, it can come from other car manufacturing plants, not just Ford.

And people, especially car enthusiasts, wanted to know where their pieces come from.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: They tried to name one Corvettite.

Speaker 1: Corvettite.

Yeah, I don’t know.

Like after the Corvette.

Speaker 2: It doesn’t really roll off the tongue, does it?

Speaker 1: No, it’s not great.

Speaker 2: So they kind of agreed to name it Detroit or Motor City Agate, kind of becoming a more standard name for it.

But they did that in trying to not mislead people and saying like, oh, this is…

Speaker 1: Yeah, because it’s not Fordite.

Speaker 2: Right.

Not all of it is Fordite.

Not all of it comes from a Ford manufacturing plant.

Speaker 1: It’s again, Fordite is a succinct word for some reason.

It sounds clear, even though it’s named after one more thing after Ford and nobody wants to do that.

It just rolls off the tongue and Motor City Agate doesn’t.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

So for that reason alone, I think Fordite is what it’s called.

And when you say Fordite, people don’t assume that it’s from the Ford company.

Speaker 1: Right, which makes sense because obviously everybody was doing the same thing.

And it sounds like it was probably started at that GM plant before even the Ford plant.

But Ford said it was there in the 20s too, so I guess…

Speaker 2: And you know, they say that, oh, history in the 1940s, but I don’t really know.

There really isn’t a record of when the first guy took this.

Speaker 1: That actually took it.

Yeah, so it’s probably been made the whole time.

Speaker 2: Who knows? Like, look at this cool thing I found.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: So about this material, I keep calling it a stone.

I guess stone’s not the right word, material.

But do you actually, did anything show how many layers it takes to make them? Because it looks like you could count them, but I feel like it’s probably thicker than what it looks like or something, maybe.

Speaker 2: Right.

So I read in one of the sources that it can take up to a thousand layers to make one piece that is one inch thick.

Now, one of the most interesting things to me is that you can see the history in these pieces.

Earlier Fordites from the 1940s tend to be more muted, while the 60s and 70s will have brighter colors.

And this is all just because of the way paint progressed, like car paint progressed.

Speaker 1: So are there different types? Has anybody tried to like categorize it or grade it or anything like that?

Speaker 2: So I don’t believe there’s an official grading source for them, but there are different types.

And this is according to fordite.com.

And they say that they can categorize them into four different types.

And I’m going to go through them and just describe them how they describe them.

Type one is separated colors, regular grade banding of primer layers between color layers.

Type two is color on color, which is opaques and metallics.

There is limited color additions, small parts and special color runs.

So say, you know, like someone just wanted their, you know, they only made like five of these orange cars, right? So you’d have that orange layer in there.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: Type three is another color on color, which is drippy and or striped with multiple color on color layers with metallics, sometimes containing lace and orbital pattern with occasional surface channeling.

I think that’s one of the ones we have.

But type four is also color on color, so no primer, opaques and metallics with bleeding color layers, sometimes containing pitting from air bubbles as the layers formed and hardened.

So what types do you think we have here in front of us?

Speaker 1: I don’t think there’s any way to like put these in categories.

I feel like they picked four that looked a little different so they could say it was a category.

But no, I don’t know.

Maybe, you know, maybe they looked at a million of them and you can categorize them and ours are just different.

I don’t really know.

Speaker 2: Right.

And it’s just a way for them to kind of go through their stock and be like, this is this, this is this.

Speaker 1: It doesn’t describe what the thing is and it’s not telling you like what, where it was made or anything.

So I don’t really get the point of the classifications, I guess.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they’re just more looking at, you know, they’re kind of trying to make it like the way diamonds are, you know, inclusions and looking at the make of the stone itself, you know, like what’s in it type thing.

But I don’t know if anyone really is like, oh, I’m selling a type four Fordite.

How much do you…

Speaker 1: Yeah, I don’t think so.

I mean, I think the point is no matter what, I mean, they just look cool.

So it kind of is what it is.

They’re just cool looking stones.

So, you know, I like them.

It’d be nice to turn them into like jewelry and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, they really are.

And I remember the first time I held one in my hand, and that happened a few years ago.

And I’ll be honest, at first when I saw it, I was like, I do not like this.

Why am I making a piece of jewelry for this? I don’t understand it.

It has a lot happening.

You know, especially if you get one with a lot of colors, it can be a lot.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it’s not, you’re not going to make an engagement ring out of this probably.

You know what I mean? It’s less refined and more just kind of like, it’s almost like a hippie kind of stone, I guess if that’s okay to say.

You know what I mean? Like it’s kind of psychedelic.

Speaker 2: Right.

But as I was looking into it, because you were like, oh, make this for a Fordite.

I was like, what is a Fordite? You know, clearly this is a made-up thing.

So I started looking into it and just the history of it.

And I just kind of became a little bit fascinated by them.

They tell a story, they tell the history of car paint, but more importantly, the color story with them to me is fascinating.

And this is what appeals to many people, from jewelry designers to craftsmen.

And it can be used as an inlay in a number of things: handles, watch faces, knobs.

And people have made new shift knobs for their antique cars for their gear shifters.

Speaker 1: Oh, that’s pretty cool.

Speaker 2: I do want to add a caveat.

I personally haven’t found a source that says they can identify authentic Fordite.

And I can see how someone can take it upon themselves to fake these.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: So unless you get scientific with it and get some sort of way to analyze the layers and date the paint, which in my mind is the only way to determine their authenticity and what era they come from, because a lot of these paints are not manufactured anymore.

Speaker 1: Right, yeah.

Speaker 2: In my humble opinion, you don’t fully know what you are purchasing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I could see that that would be a problem.

Yeah, because there’s nobody actually dating these things that you can take it to and say, is this legitimate, right?

Speaker 2: Right.

I also think that one of the ways to do it is to buy from a reputable source that has some sort of provenance on the raw Fordite.

Speaker 1: Are there, so how expensive does it get? Like what did you see for prices on this stuff?

Speaker 2: So, you know, the ones that you have in front of you, I think were like 30 bucks for the bigger one.

And I think the smaller one was like 20 bucks.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean, if it’s not that much, then there’s probably not that much money in making fake ones, right? Because it seems like it’s a lot of work.

If you think about what you had to do to make these original ones, that’s why we were talking about like, you know, it’s this like hidden Fordite factory in the middle of a Ford manufacture.

But not only is that interesting as a way that it came about, it’s also the only way it would come about because of the amount of work you had to do to actually go out and make something like this with these layers.

It seems like it would be kind of prohibitive.

Speaker 2: I actually don’t think it would be that hard to fake.

You know, you just get a cup and you kind of put in layers and, you know, they have the jewelry kilns that you can dry things in.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is overspray.

That’s why you can see all the layers.

They’re so thin.

Like you can’t just drop paint into a thing and get this.

Like you’re not going to get these tiny little layers.

You might get a couple circles and stuff, but you’re not going to get these incredibly thin layers if you’re just dropping paint into a cup.

Speaker 2: I think it can be done.

It’s a hard thing because it is, I’ve had a discussion with someone that’s a lapidary person.

And you know, I was like, well, what’s your take on Fordite? And she was kind of like, oh, I don’t know.

Like I just, you know, it’s hard to know exactly what you’re buying.

But in my opinion, if you just, you feel like what you’re looking at and you love it, then just buy it, you know?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that makes sense.

You know, I feel like we have uncovered a new occupation for the Greg-ites.

If they’re looking at all that Fordite, they know what’s what.

They can be the inspector and tell you like, this is real Fordite.

They’ll be like, that’s not.

Where does that fall? Meanwhile, they pick up another one.

Ah, yes, this is the 1938 that we got right when we switched to the enamel right before that in May.

Hmm, that’s perfect.

Speaker 2: Right.

And I mean, at some point maybe GIA, which is the Gemological Institute of America, may get into it and do testing for this stuff.

I don’t think it’s there yet.

I don’t know that it’s ever going to be there because it’s such a small time period.

We’re basically just talking about like 40 years.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there’s just not that much money in it.

It’s not like they’re charging $40,000 for these things.

So I think you just have fun with it and enjoy what you get.

Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly.

Either way, it reminded me a little bit of the coasters and you know, when we did the coaster episode and when we were talking about people faking coasters.

Speaker 1: Right.

Just don’t spend a fortune on it, you’ll be fine.

You know what I mean?

Speaker 2: Right.

Just enjoy it.

And even if you do spend a little more, then just make sure that you really love it and it’s something that you’re, you know, if it’s a piece of jewelry, it’s something that you’re going to wear.

If it’s, you know, a knob for your, you know, for your door…

Speaker 1: I mean, I think any amount of money is justified if you’re making a knob for your shifter on like your ’57 Chevy or something.

You know what I mean? Then you can just spend whatever you want.

You’re justified.

Speaker 2: But yeah.

So with that, we will conclude our look into Fordite.

Greg, what is your takeaway from our little Fordite discussion?

Speaker 1: I really think it’s just kind of amazing.

What I liked about this story is how you just had this little production process, as we kind of put it, because it’s really what was happening.

It was like this miniature unintended production process just going on within a very intentional production process to make and paint cars.

And then this thing just gets discovered and then it becomes popular.

And then for the exact same reason, it goes away.

And I just think that’s like a just a really amazing little bit of history that we uncovered here.

So it was a great story and I’m glad we got to do it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

I want to thank you all for listening to this edition of the Informatorium 56 podcast.

You’ll find all our sources and some fun images on our website at informatorium56.com.

There are also a couple of links of some videos if you want to learn more about the history and the chemistry of car paint and about Ford’s assembly line.

And as always, if you wish to contact us, you can reach us at informatorium56@gmail.com.

Thank you for coming to the podcast and please go out there and live a good life.

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for visiting us here at the Informatorium.

We wish you a happy, healthy, and beautiful journey.

Until we see you again, look on the bright side and good luck.

Bye!